 | ζάω as transitive verb |
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I often encounter the verb ζάω (I live) used as transitive verb (i.e. with object in accusative case) both in ancient and modern greek. For example: ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός σου, Κύριε, ζήσεις με (psalm 142, LXX translation) έχεις ζήσει κάποια απαγορευμένη αγάπη? ("ακούστε ελληνικά" audio course) In all languages I know the verb "I live" is never used as transitive. Could someone explain me how it is possible and how it should be translated? |
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Hi Nick, First, notice that the form ζάω is strictly Old (Biblical) Greek. In Modern Greek, the verb is ζω only, second person ζεις (not *ζας). Second, the transitive use of ζάω isn't the same as the transitive use of ζω. Transitive ζάω is a factitive, i.e. it means "to make (someone or something) live", "to give life to", or "to give one's life to". Transitive ζω, however, is a synonym of βιώνω: "to experience" (you can see it as meaning "to live through"). You can see that at the hand of the translations of the sentences you gave: ἕνεκεν τοῦ ὀνόματός σου, Κύριε, ζήσεις με: For Your name's sake, O Lord, give me life. έχεις ζήσει κάποια απαγορευμένη αγάπη;: have you (ever) experienced a forbidden love? As for how it is possible, well, that's language for you. Verbs that are intransitive in one language needn't be so in another. Same for transitive verbs. Look at the English verb "to open", for instance. In English, it can be used transitively, to indicate that someone opens something, or intransitively, to indicate that something is opening. In French however, the verb "ouvrir" is strictly transitive, and can only be used to indicate that someone is opening something. "To open" can be used intransitively, "ouvrir" cannot. But anyway, even in English "to live" can be used transitively, as in "to live a dream" or "to live one's life to the fullest" (which is similar to the use of ζω as a transitive verb, i.e. meaning "to experience). So it's not as if Greek is the odd one out here (French does it as well with "vivre", in the same way as English or Greek, and I believe at least Spanish does it too with "vivir"). |
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Christophe is quite correct in his "belief" that Spanish uses vivir transitively in the sense of "inhabit." ...Mi hermano tiene una casa en Paris pero no la vive. ... He is not so correct, however, in saying that French ouvrir is never used intransitively. Here are the example-sentences given in Le Petit Robert precisely to show that it can be (and is) so used. (Please forgive the absence of accent marks): Cette porte n'ouvre jamais. Magasin, theatre qui ouvre tel jour. Les cours ouvriront la semaine prochaine. ouvrir can, in fact, be used transitively, intransitively, or pronominally. . . and is not, in fact, "strictly transitive." Or so it appears. Good wishes, Blake More |
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You're right, I made a mistake with "ouvrir". Which is weird, since French is my native language. But it doesn't change my main message, that transitivity needn't be the same for all verbs in all languages. |
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Actually, the more I'm thinking about this, the more I think my first description of the French verb "ouvrir" was correct. To explain myself, let's look at the various examples you gave:
So I'll come back to my earlier claim: in English "to open" can be transitive and intransitive. In French (at least modern, Spoken French) it's strictly transitive (although the intransitive usage in English can be rendered using a reflexive form). My main remark still stands naturally, that similar verbs in different languages needn't behave the same in terms of transitivity. |
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Since my purpose in coming to LGO is to learn Greek and not to argue about French verbs, I offer only the foolowing brief observation on your most recent post: Engaging ... interesting ... fascinating ... and utter nonsense. Your idiolect appears to contain large elements of fantasy along with generous helpings of chocolate and strawberry. Consider: ... fenetre qui ouvre sur la mer ... (accent mark suppressed). Surely some logically and factually flawed reasoning can turn this into a transitive verb. Good wishes Blake More |
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Are you trying to teach me my own native language? Who the hell are you to tell a native French man that the way he speaks his language is wrong? No, really, who the hell do you think you are? As to your example, once again, it sounds extremely archaic to my ears, and not something I (or for that matter any French person I know) would naturally say. We would, much more naturally, say something like: "une fenêtre qui s'ouvre sur la mer", with a pronominal, i.e. reflexive form. Your form may be found in a book, but it's definitely not something people would say (and one thing you must be made aware of, is that Written French and Spoken French have diverged strongly, to the point that they are now nearly different languages, not unlike Katharevousa and Demotic are in Greek). No factually flawed reasoning. You just have got your facts wrong. Which isn't surprising, as French as a second language is taught very badly across the world, according to standards that have little to do with how French is actually used by its native speakers. But let's get back to learning Greek. I wouldn't want you to wake up from that little fantasy that you would somehow know French better than a native speaker. |
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You demostrate that it is in fact possible simultaneously to pontificate, tergiversate, and err. I imagine your idiolect could discern the transitivity of the verbs in what follows: 1.) Cet homme boit. 2.) La porte ferme mal. 3.) Les arbres avaient fleuri. Good wishes, Blake More |
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You demonstrate utter lack of respect and the inability to know when you just don't know. I explained myself twice, and you keep coming back with irrelevant nonsense, that shows your complete lack of understanding of how Spoken French works. Last time: 1) transitive, object is just omitted (the natural follow up would be "qu'est-ce qu'il boit?": "what is he drinking?"). 2) incorrect, just not a correct sentence in Spoken French (it's that simple. It's not a transitive or intransitive sentence. It's an incorrect, ungrammatical sentence). 3) intransitive. If you can't understand those simple explanations, then there is no hope for you, and I consider this discussion over. There's no point in talking to someone who isn't willing to listen. |
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| also, if you are trying to learn modern greek, seek books written in that language. Bible is not much useful, unless you are reading the translated version (which is not that good either cause people don't talk that way any longer). |
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| Yes sure I'm aware about that, but still I want to learn two languages in parallel, because they are both useful for me. Ancient Greek is beautiful language itself and there are a lot of great books written in it (including of course the New Testament). Modern Greek is not as beautiful as its ancestor, but potentially useful as tool for communication with modern Greeks, although I haven't find a lot of friends from Greece who are willing to spend time for chats with me. Also it's very interesting to watch how the language evolves over years. |
| Re: ζάω as transitive verb |
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For Argyrios Poungouras, Please tell me the names of as many books of modern short stories in Greek as you can think of. |
